未来のいつか/hyoshiokの日記

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バグデータベースを読む

開発者も利用者もバグと認めた現象についての解決は時が経つのを待つ。問題は開発者がその現象をバグと認めない場合だ。「それは仕様です

仕様だろうがなんだろうが利用者が困っているという状況は変わらない。利用者としてはどうにかして仕様だろうがなんだろうがどーにかして欲しいと切に願っている。ここに開発者と利用者の目に見えない綱引きが発生する。

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=136290

SJISのlocaleを用意して欲しい、という要求に対し開発者はNOと言っている。中身を見てみよう。

Description of problem:
Add Japanese SJIS locale.

Red Hat doesn't support, but the community do.

SJISのlocaleをサポートして欲しい。

Steps to Reproduce:
1. SJIS!
2. SJIS!
3. SJIS!

再現方法としてSJISSJISSJISとしているが正直言って意味不明である。

Additional Comment #1 From Jakub Jelinek on 2004-10-19 03:37 -------

There is a big problem with SJIS, particularly that it isn't ASCII
compatible. Therefore many POSIX programs will misbehave when in
SJIS locale, which is not something that we should IMHO support.

開発者からの返事である。ASCII互換ではないと主張している。ASCII互換というのが未定義なので何を開発者が指しているのか精密に理解する事は難しい。

Additional Comment #2 From Ulrich Drepper on 2004-10-19 03:44 -------

Using a SJIS-based locale means violating standards. And beside, we
only support UTF-8 locales from now on.

標準に準拠しないのでUTF-8 localeしかサポートしない。どの標準に準拠しないかという指摘はない。

Additional Comment #3 From Yukihiro Nakai on 2004-10-19 08:04 -------

Sounds like a very dictator logic by European and American
as always happened on codeset issues.

ううむ、EuropeanとAmericanを一緒くたにした乱暴な発言である。codesetの議論には全く関係ない余計な一文だ。有害無益である。

Other commercial UNIXs have that SJIS locale and troublesome.
Users knows them but still want SJIS locale.

他の商用UNIXではSJIS localeを持っているという主張は正しい。

Additional Comment #4 From Jakub Jelinek on 2004-10-19 08:19 -------

Users that want to shoot themselves in the foot can do so themselves.
localedef -i ja_JP -c -f SHIFT_JIS /usr/lib/locale/ja_JP.sjis
will create that for them, but I don't think that is something
we should promote and support.

iconv(1) and iconv(3) certainly support SJIS, so if users have documents
in SJIS charset, they can convert to UTF-8 (and back).

開発者は localedef -i ja_JP -c -f SHIFT_JIS /usr/lib/locale/ja_JP.sjis というワークアラウンド(回避策)を提示している。さらに、iconvを利用すれば問題は解決すると主張している。

Additional Comment #5 From Ulrich Drepper on 2004-10-19 11:03 -------

> Sounds like a very dictator logic by European and American
> as always happened on codeset issues.

This is an issue of maintenance for the distribution. Using a
non-ASCII clean locale means that various programs will just cease to
work. How will pay all the wasted hour of our developers who get
reports a program doesn't work and it turns out it is the fault of
this locale?

non-ASCII localeを利用する時の問題点を指摘している。

Arguing about other Unixes having support is irrelevant. There is no
Unix in existence even today which has internationalization as
complete as Linux. They simply don't have these programs. And in
case of, say, Solaris there is an additional problem that they have a
non-fixed wchar_t representation (in old code, they switch for new
code as well) which makes it all but impossible to write correct
i18n'ed software.

Solarisでの問題点も指摘している。

I would appreciate if you don't use words like the above anymore since
we actually know what the implications are since we actually wrote the
code.

先に引用した(Sounds like a very dictator logic by European and American
as always happened on codeset issues.)みたいな言い方はしてくれるなと苦言を呈している。

Additional Comment #10 From Yukihiro Nakai on 2004-10-20 13:13 -------

>This is an issue of maintenance for the distribution. Using a
>non-ASCII clean locale means that various programs will just cease to
>work. How will pay all the wasted hour of our developers who get
>reports a program doesn't work and it turns out it is the fault of
>this locale?

Adding SJIS locale doesn't mean directly that you need accept and fix
all SJIS among applications. There should be what our developers should
and what they should not. Just rejecting SJIS locales will get rid of
any chances. Don't skew open source freedom by just your unwillingness.

全然双方の主張がかみあっていない。

>Arguing about other Unixes having support is irrelevant. There is no
>Unix in existence even today which has internationalization as
>complete as Linux. They simply don't have these programs. And in
>case of, say, Solaris there is an additional problem that they have a
>non-fixed wchar_t representation (in old code, they switch for new
>code as well) which makes it all but impossible to write correct
>i18n'ed software.

Stop messing around.
Linux is just the best implemented the incomplete international
standards, ignoring many imoportant domestic issues.
There are many UNIXs with much better Japanese support than Linux.
Even there were versions of Japanese by Japanese for Japanese.
Why can you glibc is enough and ready for real Japanese already?

もし商用UNIXの方がよりよいサポートをしていると主張するならば、例示をしないと説得力に欠ける。

When migrating from other unices to Linux, SJIS is the biggest problem.
Wnen migrating from Windows to Linux, SJIS is the biggest problem.

Your opinion is like that of who are enjoying to wath other people's
fatal suffers through TV, sitting in the comfortable, safty rooms
in a far distance.

意味不明な段落である。

>I would appreciate if you don't use words like the above anymore since
>we actually know what the implications are since we actually wrote the
>code.
Sorry, just learned from your mails before.
I don't bow to the dictator.

またまたいらない事を言って喧嘩をしている。

Additional Comment #11 From GOTO Masanori on 2004-10-21 14:40 -------

I couldn't understand why you guys insist to support ja_JP.SJIS locale.
I guess you want to use SJIS for text convertion (use iconv, nkf),
or use SJIS on filesystem (use mount option). But why do you want
to use ja_JP.SJIS _environment_?

ja_JP.SJIS locale is broken for unix environment.
Most Japanese locale developers do not consider about ja_JP.SJIS locale
for daily processing because SJIS is not suitable for unix environment.
We have tested for ja_JP.ujis, ja_JP.eucJP, ja_JP.EUC-JP, and
ja_JP.UTF-8. However ja_JP.SJIS (and ja_JP.ISO-2022-JP variants) are
out of scope.

Only the thing I heard about using ja_JP.SJIS is to handle SJIS on
xmms. But I think it's just local hack for that user, and I doubt it's
usable for everyone (and read comments; it's not).

I think it's useful that you check whether ja_JP.SJIS is usable or not,
and which part violates POSIX behavior before complaining, because
no one has tested and collected it, IIRC.

別の観点からのコメント。

Status: CLOSED
Resolution: WONTFIX

最終的な結論は、クローズ、修正予定無し(WONTFIX)

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